Threat briefings, not statistical talks: ESET’s Cameron Tousley and Pedro Kertzman on making CTI work for MSPs

Robert Dutt: Hello and welcome to In The Channel from ChannelBuzz.ca, bringing news and information to the Canadian IT channel community for the last 16 years. I’m Robert Dutt, editor of ChannelBuzz.ca, and your host for the show.

Cyber Threat Intelligence, CTI, has long been framed as an enterprise discipline. Dedicated team, security operations center, analysts who live in the data. But the threat landscape doesn’t really respect that boundary anymore. The tooling is getting more accessible, the attacks are getting more targeted at smaller organizations, and as we’ve talked about on the show before, the MSP stack itself has become a threat vector. So the question for the typical Canadian MSP isn’t really “Is threat intelligence relevant to me?” It’s “What do I actually do with it?”

To dig into that, I sat down with two people from ESET. Cameron Tousley is director of MSP channels for ESET North America, and he lives squarely in the business conversation around what MSPs need to grow and differentiate. Pedro Kertzman is ESET’s resident CTI subject matter expert, and I’ll note that Pedro usually sits on the other side of the interview chair as the host of his own podcast on threat intelligence. So this was a bit of a role reversal for him.

We talked about ESET’s eCrime reports, the idea of tracking cyber criminal activity at the affiliate level rather than just the group level, what proactive threat intelligence actually looks like for a 15-person MSP shop, and what Cameron described as the “evolve or sell” reality facing the MSP market right now. Let’s get right into it. Cameron, Pedro, thanks for joining us. I appreciate it.

Cameron Tousley: Thanks for having us.

Pedro Kertzman: Great to be here.

Robert Dutt: Before we get into what ESET is specifically bringing to market, Cameron, can you give our listeners a sense for where the threat intelligence conversation is right now in the channel? Is this still primarily an enterprise kind of discussion or has something really shifted in terms of how MSPs and MSSPs are thinking about and talking about CTI?

Cameron Tousley: I think that the market is evolving as a whole, no matter if you’re in the SMB segment or enterprise. I mean, it’s evolving everywhere. The beautiful thing is technology is getting cheaper, it’s getting more accessible. People are able with the advent of AI to kind of do more with less staff and things like that, and then allow their staff to kind of become more specialized.

Enter in the topic of CTI. I just think that there’s an appetite from certain, and probably more evolving larger MSPs, to start incorporating more for their clients. I think they’ve always probably wanted to educate them, but it’s always that, “Hey man, just make sure I have uptime and the help desk is active when I need it.” And that’s the conversation. Fast forward to now and it’s becoming a little bit more relevant to want to consume CTI. So I’ll kind of start there and I’ll take a pause. I don’t know if Pedro’s got any other comments on that.

Pedro Kertzman: No, I 100% agree. I think the threat landscape now with the maturity of the CTI offerings, MSPs can see that the things they’re trying to protect their customers against are more clearly explained and delivered in a way that they can see through CTI offerings now. So I think it’s just a natural evolution within the cybersecurity space to start leveraging that expertise as well.

Robert Dutt: Without getting too far into pure positioning, how would you characterize what differentiates your approach to threat intelligence, sort of at the methodology level? What’s the philosophy behind how you’re researching and tracking threats and what you’re bringing to market with this CTI package?

Cameron Tousley: Yeah, I’d say first off, our reach. We’re a global company. We have a product line, yeah, but we have 11 threat intel centers and those are also R&D centers too. So it’s a wealth of knowledge. Then we have researchers outside of that that are just remote, and so our tentacles are everywhere and that means something for somebody choosing a cybersecurity vendor or a platform because our researchers, they’re looking at a bunch of different avenues.

They’re looking at the major threat acting groups. We have an offering we’ll talk about here in a few minutes, that centers on tracking affiliates because malicious activity, malware-as-a-service, is just like MSPs provide a service. So if I’m an affiliate—and I’ll define that real quick, an affiliate being the people that are buying the malware service and then going and distributing it and causing zero-day attacks—those are affiliates. So the real key part is what they do, not necessarily always the major malware-as-a-service group because that’s just one large avenue, but then you can’t predict what your customers are going to go and do on the black market.

So yeah, I think we have a really exciting offering on our threat intelligence called eCrime and it comes in a feed and reports and it’s amazing. It really centers on the affiliate level and that is going to help get the conversations to be more quality with customers. It’s going to help an MSP who provides more, let’s call it reactive security at best, generalized services—which no knock against them, that’s just the model—and that’s going to help propel them into the more proactive security and having more quality cybersecurity-forward conversations with their customers of all sizes.

Robert Dutt: Let’s delve a little bit more into that. Can you walk me through a scenario, even hypothetical or composite, where that affiliate-level insight would practically change the outcome for an MSP or one of their customers? How does this show up for an MSP basically?

Pedro Kertzman: Yeah. So basically, I’ll take a step back a little bit just to explain how this threat ecosystem works. So the affiliates will be the ones really on the end of the line bringing that malware they got from a quote-unquote threat actor market or affiliate programs, more technically speaking per se, but they will be the ones delivering or sending that payload forward to whatever companies that they are trying to attack.

So knowing how these guys work is basically going to give the companies, and the MSPs of course working for their security, the ability to stop the attack in the early stages, because the affiliates will be the ones trying to break in, acquire through whatever methods—credentials stolen or compromised credentials. So they are responsible, quote-unquote, within these affiliate programs to get the foot inside the door. So if you’re knowledgeable about how they act, what kind of techniques they use to get that foot in, you’re basically stopping the attacks before they actually become super massive, widespread attacks or super dangerous attacks. It’s kind of the proactive security instead of the reactive security.

Cameron Tousley: Yeah, that’s a good comment. And then I’ll just throw one more little thing on that. I was talking about the conversations you can have with your clients, everything Pedro said, plus it’s like, you could have a specific conversation about, “Hey, this is what we blocked this month, but these are the threat acting groups, and here are the patterns, here’s the kind of malware that’s out there right now. By the way, you’re in the healthcare vertical, this threat acting group is targeting healthcare and doing this specific type of attack—happens to be phishing or fileless or whatever the complex attack is.”

So they got to get really granular in the conversation. It can’t just be a super high-level one, because then your user’s not going to know what to do with that information. But if you coach them on the end-of-the-line issue and where it’s sourcing from, to Pedro’s point, you get ahead of that attack early, you might even prevent stuff that would have normally been a real headache.

Robert Dutt: And you need to position yourself at least somewhat as the hero in so much as you’re saying, “Here’s the people who are attacking you, here’s what they’re doing, here’s what we’re doing proactively to counter that.”

Cameron Tousley: Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a huge value to your end customer. The one that normally would have not cared about security and it’s more of an annoyance, now they’re paranoid about it, just like the MSP, just like the vendors, we’re all trying to get ahead of it. So I think that that provides a lot of value, and the average MSP is probably not going to do that. So you don’t necessarily have to go spend a ton of money, you just have to consume the information that’s out there maybe for free, and then maybe some of the paid services like the eCrime reports without buying our full threat intelligence platform, you can just do that. And that is like a huge value on its own to track exactly what we’re talking about right now.

Robert Dutt: So taking a step back, I think some of this certainly informs and colors the question we go to ask, but I’m a 15-person MSP somewhere. I’ve got solid endpoint protection, an RMM stack I like, maybe managed SOC coverage, that kind of model. What’s the case, in addition to what we’ve already discussed, for why threat intelligence should be on my radar as a distinct capability I need to think about, bring to my customers and offer?

Pedro Kertzman: Yeah, I think especially because again, talking specifically about the eCrime reports, we’re talking about the ones that are really perpetrating the attacks or executing the attacks. When you understand how your adversaries really act, you don’t need to always rely on the expertise of a super senior CTI analyst. There are ways that also, depending on your vendor, you can automate the expertise to just be pumping, let’s say, IOCs or IP addresses into your existing end users’ firewalls. If you manage a bunch of other firewalls for your end users, you can pump that eCrime knowledge into those firewalls in the form of IP addresses, domains, and things like that. But understanding that it’s going to be a proactive approach so they don’t get a foot in the door first, it’s kind of that decision beforehand that will give the MSPs, or MSSPs with 15 or so employees, that kind of extra leverage against those frontline attackers.

Robert Dutt: I’m really interested in the idea of using intelligence and these eCrime reports as a client-facing tool, not just something that’s consumed internally, especially for that smaller MSP—something that you’re using in your QBR or whatever business review you have with customers to show your value. I’m curious, is that something you’re seeing happening today or is it a realistic use case, or is it a stretch for most MSPs right now?

Cameron Tousley: I think it’s realistic. Now, let’s set the tone here. An MSP, they may not have the budget nor the expertise nor the staff to be buying a full-blown threat intelligence offering even like ours, but they can use certain parts of it like the eCrime reports. So that’s a good jumping-in point for the MSPs that are growing, or if you have 15 people on staff and there’s a good deal of them on the technical side, you may want to run your SOC in-house. Maybe that’s something you want to do. I think for them, the maturing MSP and definitely the MSSP, a threat intelligence offering is something that you will probably want to consume if you’re doing everything in-house.

Now, I think there’s an argument for even if you’re going to go out-of-house and use the vendor, I still think there are free sources. We have customers that are using free platforms but running a paid feed through it. This is really dynamic. It’s flexible. It can fit to every different audience for the most part, except for the ones who are just not staffed for it and they’re probably outsourcing everything and they just don’t want to do it. They know that they are never going to be able to staff a 24×7 team and they’re also never going to be able to consume as much information as is coming in.

But there are also other free resources, like I said, associated with our threat intelligence platform, like the eCrime reports, but there’s white papers that we produce. There are periodic threat reports. We do all kinds of analysis. And then on our welivesecurity.com blog, we publish all kinds of free information. And the really cool thing for existing ESET customers is through our ESET security platform, ESET Protect, we run a live feed through there and it shows you like, “Hey, here’s the latest news on WeLiveSecurity. Here is something you need to be aware of, there’s a vulnerability in the wild.” So we run some of the security stuff and this news right through a window inside of our platform, which I think is really big value added.

Pedro Kertzman: Awesome. Yeah, I would add, if I can, Rob, we do have monthly digests as well on the CTI offerings, even for not super deep-down technical people. Let’s say more executives or CSMs, let’s say account managers on the MSSP or MSP side. It’s kind of an executive-ready type of report. So it’s more about the threat landscape overview. I think it helps them show that they are expanding their offerings on the security side and they’re knowledgeable about it as well. Again, doesn’t need to go in the nitty-gritty like in the weeds of IOCs and all that, but understanding, for example, that now the ecosystem on the other side is somebody providing the malware, somebody going and executing it. So just to show how they see these movements, I think it’s sometimes important enough to show that they are expanding their coverage for their end users.

Robert Dutt: The reports, the eCrime reports, have been in the market about a month now, I guess. I’m curious what you’re actually hearing from MSPs and MSSPs as they’re digging into them. Are people using them the way you expected or are there surprises that you’re seeing in how they’re engaging, what they’re doing, how they’re thinking about this information?

Pedro Kertzman: That’s a good question. I think because of the name, we got out of the gate with police forces reaching out to us, but in theory, it’s not the best kind of deep analysis that we’re going to give them, because they have a lot of expertise. So then we have the APT reports that would bring more detailed analysis for them. So it was interesting to see that people are kind of eager on the end-user side to see how the threat landscape, especially related to financial crimes or eCrime, are really, let’s say, hot right now. The MSPs are kind of following that trend, not as jumping on like the police forces were, but they are starting to inquire about the new eCrime reports for sure.

Cameron Tousley: Yeah, I’d agree. I think the defender agencies, I’ll call them, the ones that are fighting the same battle we are, but maybe physically, but now they’re fighting the eCrime too. As they’re learning, this is a great tool for them. We find that they’re excited about it. It’s relatively new, so we’re going to see more and more adoption of it. But plenty of people who are in evaluation are like, “Hey, can I run a free month of this? I want to check it out and see what I’m going to get.” And we’re getting a lot of good feedback on it right now.

I’d say on the MSSP/MSP side, again, it’s new for them too. And they do a lot of different things. So for them, they’re like, “I need to slice out some time to check this out as well because this is interesting. I don’t know if anybody else is really doing anything quite like this.” So for them to be able to check it out and add it to their offering, I think what’s going to happen is that they’ll get hooked on something like that and they’ll want more. And we’re already working on more. So our teams are hard at work. We’re adding new feeds, new reporting structures, new ways to consume it. And reasonably priced packages and things like that. Even ones where you have somebody on retainer where you can go to and get a very long deep dive on what you’re reading periodically throughout any given month. So I think with that, you’ll see a lot of internal IT large agencies adopt it. I think you’ll see some MSSPs adopt it. And you might even see some general MSPs who are evolving up that chain do the same thing. So it’s kind of a report and an offering for everybody there.

Pedro Kertzman: Yeah, I think you mentioned something important, Cam. We do offer trials for the eCrime reports as well, right? If they want to test it out.

Cameron Tousley: Yeah, try it before you buy it. Yeah.

Robert Dutt: It sounds like you’re also thinking about ways that you can slice this, dice this, package it out to that smaller MSP or that MSP who’s not a pure-play security player going forward. I was going to ask, what do you see as coming next in CTI and in your eCrime reports? I think that’s certainly a hint. Anything else that you see sort of in the pipeline or where you’d like it to go, where partners would like to see it go?

Cameron Tousley: Yeah, I’ll take a stab at this one because my heart’s near and dear to the MSP community. That’s what I’ve been working in. That’s a segment for quite a long time now for ESET. And so what I’m reading and what I’m theorizing on is that there’s other kinds of technologies that are pretty complex, have gotten more simple in the way that they’re still doing complex processes, like an EDR, right? It’s an investigative tool, and then you pair it with AI and then things become easier for the team managing it.

I think it’s going to be the same thing here where you’re going to have an AI paired with it, which we have our own agentic AI agent in this offering now, which is very, very cool, and it’s built in our security platform. But for this, I think it’s going to make consuming information easier, generalizing it, summarizing it, and making sure you can spin it into a quick executive summary. My theory is click of a button, right? So I’m going to have a dashboard. I’m going to say, “Hey, I want an executive summary on this event.” So you’re basically just filtering, and then the end result is you hit that AI generate button and then it generates something that’s quality, and you can do it at various user levels, maybe various role levels. I’ll hit the CTO button or I’ll hit the CEO button and they’ll be a little bit different, obviously. So I think that it’s going to get simpler and managed intelligence as a service, that’s next. It’s already a term that’s being thrown out there a little bit if you look for it. So it’s just not mainstream yet. And I think it will be here in a short period of time.

Pedro Kertzman: A hundred percent. And just to double down a little bit as well, Rob. I think especially for the smaller MSPs, let’s say you hit a critical infrastructure, you stop a pipeline or anything like that, you’re going to have federal agencies going after you, right? But then when you hit a mom-and-pop shop, nobody really cares. And those guys are often served through these smaller MSPs. So I think getting a better understanding of the threat landscape that especially targets those small businesses, I think it’s just a natural progression of the change in the threat landscape.

Robert Dutt: Well, and you bring up a point that I kind of pulled on a little bit with your friend, Tony Anscombe, not too long ago. There’s so much data about how many attacks right now are taking advantage of the MSP tooling as a threat vector. And so I think that also speaks to a need for an MSP who wants to be mature and responsible about these kinds of things to have a better grip on who’s looking, what they’re looking at, and how that maps to what they’re doing.

Pedro Kertzman: A hundred percent. And just to link this specifically about eCrime and affiliates, affiliates would be the ones exploiting those RMM tools, right? Because it’s something that is already deployed in the environment. If they get the credentials that got stolen for whatever reason, they have access to those tools and then they can deploy malware that they bought from those affiliate programs inside of the victim’s networks.

Robert Dutt: And it’s funny, almost a reversal of back in the day, I can remember as a Mac user, there was a saying that Apple engaged in security through obscurity. What you describe is almost the opposite of that. It’s insecurity to a degree through obscurity. In that if I’m an attacker, I know that if I go after Colonial Pipeline to use your example, I’m all over the front page and there’s going to be a lot of government agencies who have a lot of serious, serious questions for me. If I take out an MSP tool that gives me access to a bunch of very small clients though, maybe I fly under the radar just a little bit more.

Cameron Tousley: Oh yeah.

Robert Dutt: This is my last question. If there’s one shift in thinking that you’d want a Canadian MSP to walk away with after this conversation, in terms of how they think about these reports, in terms of how they think about the role of threat intelligence in their business, you know, one thing they should reconsider about how they’re approaching their security practice, what would that be?

Pedro Kertzman: So I think first, Rob, that’s kind of more of a mindset type of thing. CTI still sounds super complex to a lot of people. I would say there are two main flavors. One, if you really want to dig into techniques and all that, yes, you can get fairly technical and sophisticated, but there are really simple ways to ingest cyber threat intelligence into existing automated tools. You can, of course, do a POC with one, two, whatever vendors you want to do. Once you find that real value for your customers, your end users, then it’s automated. We’re talking about data feeds ingesting directly into a firewall. If you don’t have a CTI central brain kind of thing, which the market knows as a TIP (threat intel platform), you don’t need to go that route, the sophisticated route. There are simple ways to use threat intelligence. And honestly, it’s super valuable because it’s just, again, automated. You’re outsourcing the knowledge to the vendor directly who’s going to execute that, like a firewall, for example.

Cameron Tousley: Yeah, I think that’s some really good commentary. And I have a lot of business conversations with MSP business owners and I follow the market, and the consolidation, there’s tons of it. And there has been for a few years, but it’s just insane right now. And I think that there’s this thing going around, it’s like, look, evolve or sell. Because you have the advent of AI and that’s speeding everything up tenfold. And just don’t be afraid. If you want to continue to run your business, don’t worry, you’re going to have clients out there in your locale that probably love you. But they’re also going to have people calling them as these other MSPs get bigger, and these national ones that swallow other little smaller companies and then their go-to market will be, “Well, let’s go down market, down market,” because we can’t always go up market, that’s pretty hard to do.

But down market is like shooting fish in a barrel kind of thing. So that means it’s a risk for the smaller MSPs that are not going to sell out, that want to be in business another 10 or 15 years. So don’t be afraid, utilize AI to research it. They say don’t use AI as Google, I disagree a little bit, but you can use it for a lot of things. This can summarize: what is this offering? Can I use it? Ask it really basic questions to get acquainted, and then take the next step and call your vendor and just have a conversation with them and say, “What are all my options? I am in this locale, I serve these kind of verticals, here’s my sizing, here’s the tools I use.”

You’ve got to throw everything out on the table because then your vendor, somebody like a technical or business contact, can jump in and say, “Look, I think that you should check out this part of this larger offering. And here’s what I’ll do for you. And here’s what you’re going to do. We’ll give you a game plan, right? You’re going to trial it in the following ways, we’re going to pair you up with a technical person to teach you a little bit and be your co-pilot—Microsoft gets enough press.” But really kind of jump in, try it out. Don’t be afraid. Because if you want to be around another 10 or 15 years, you have to make the leap. And you don’t have to do anything big, but you have to start adopting some of this security-forward thinking so that you can have threat briefings with your clients and not statistical talks.

There was just that MSP summit and there was actually a panel on what the next gen of MSPs is doing. And it was funny to hear it because they’re like, “Well, we’re focused on outcomes.” And I totally agree, but I know some of the older MSPs are like, “Well, we’re focused on outcomes too.” But I think it’s the talk track. You’re all saying the same thing, but you need some more complex tools in some ways to be able to have these more outcome-based discussions. Like, “Hey, I not only blocked X amount of threats, I kept your uptime up in this way, and that allowed you to keep productivity up. So by my clock here, you were able to achieve all those things that you wanted to achieve in our initial meeting, we’re on track.” That’s the conversation you want to have in addition to that little bit of the threat briefings peppered in.

Robert Dutt: All right. Some great advice there. Gentlemen, thank you both for taking the time. I appreciate it.

Cameron Tousley: Thank you, Rob.

Pedro Kertzman: Great to be here.

Cameron Tousley: Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thanks so much.

Robert Dutt: There you have it, Cameron Tousley and Pedro Kertzman from ESET. I’d like to thank both Cameron and Pedro for their time. They did exactly what we set out to do with this conversation, kept it firmly in the strategy lane with technical depth in service of the business point rather than the other way around.

A few things to leave you with. The framing that stuck with me most was Cameron’s distinction between statistics talk and threat briefings. The idea that your quarterly client review shifts from “here’s how many threats we blocked” to “here’s the specific group targeting your vertical right now. Here’s how their affiliate operates, and here’s what we’ve already done about it.” That’s a real upgrade in how an MSP demonstrates value. It moves you from uptime vendor to trusted advisor and that’s a conversation your competitors probably aren’t having yet.

On the technical side, Pedro’s explanation of affiliate-level tracking is worth sitting with. The headline ransomware groups get the attention, but it’s the affiliates, the ones buying malware-as-a-service and doing the actual execution who determine the tactics on the ground. Tracking them is what gives you an early warning before the attack scales. And as I noted during the conversation, there’s a certain logic in how attackers exploit the MSP model specifically. Go after the tooling, stay under the radar, quietly compromise a hundred small clients instead of one high-profile target. Obscurity in that scenario is working against you.

For the smaller MSP who’s heard all of this and thought, “I’m not staffed for this,” Pedro’s entry point is worth considering. You don’t need a full threat intelligence platform or a dedicated analyst to start. Automate the ingestion of indicators of compromise directly into your clients’ firewalls. Let the tooling do the work. It’s not glamorous, but it’s real, actionable and it’s a lot more than most of your competitors are doing.

And Cameron’s closing thought, “evolve or sell,” is the frame I’d put around all of it. The consolidation wave hitting the MSP market right now is not slowing down. The shops that survive as independents will be the ones that have more sophisticated conversations with their customers. Threat intelligence is one of the things that helps you have those conversations.

If you found this one useful, please follow or subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, all the major podcast directories. Ratings and reviews are always appreciated. Until next time, I’m Robert Dutt for ChannelBuzz.ca and I’ll see you in the channel.